Demonac ([info]demonac) wrote,
@ 2008-05-06 15:41:00
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Current mood: 350
Entry tags:agc, character sheets, comic, d&d, dungeons and dragons, gamer, gaming comic, humor, minmax, pen-and-paper, pnp, rpg

New AGC, and the gang's Character Sheets
That's right, I've just hit my 350th AGC comic (woo), and since it isn't especially exciting, I also posted their brand new 3.5 character sheets in .rtf format for your perusal (download here).

This is also the thread for comments on the characters and generally complaining about how disappointed you are with my character-building and how too much detail ruins the fantasy :P


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[info]lazloki
2008-05-06 10:58 pm UTC (link)
Dan shouldn't be able to transmute his force spells to fire, only the element spells (cold, acid, electricity). But I originally made the same mistake with other energy types (light specifically) so I can imagine that slipping past a DM. I eventually got corrected on that by the DM (herald level rules lawyer DM), it might be clarified in errattas or on the Wizards site, I'm not sure? It was actually a relief to get light and sonic spells back, but I didn't have any of the +caster level with fire spells stuff.

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[info]lazloki
2008-05-06 11:42 pm UTC (link)
It was bugging me so I tried tracking down that clarification with no luck. The DM's Herald status meant he sometimes did direct QA with Wizards employees so there might not be anything on file.

Another way to consider it is like 'Protection from Energy' which despite it's name only covers Fire, Cold, Electricity, Acid, and Sonic. In fact as far as I can tell everything in spells and feats with 'Energy' in it's title only covers the 4-5. By this logic I'm probably wrong above when I say substituting sonic doesn't work (I don't think Dante ever used sonic so I'm not sure what my old DM thought), and as always with such things DM interpretation wins out.

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[info]demonac
2008-05-07 12:41 am UTC (link)
It's certainly much better for the Elemental Savant if he CANNOT change force spells, since he is forced to always substitute his chosen element.

However, my reading of it is that although you are limited in which energy types you can change spells to (both by Energy Substitution and the PrC), both say that they work on "any spell with an energy descriptor". Normally, there's little or no advantage to substituting Fire/Cold/Acid/Elec for Force or Sonic, but as far as I can tell, you can. Which would mean the Elemental Savant would have no choice. To anyone but Dan, this would probably be considered a crippling disadvantage.

But as you say, for unclear things like this, DM interpretation does win out.

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[info]lazloki
2008-05-07 01:44 am UTC (link)
This isn't really relevent but might be interesting to you. After your original comic strip where Dans character began to be revamped (strip 346), I was inspired to create a 'Fireball Bob' backup character for a game I'm in.
I figured out that between the PHB, PHB2, and the Spell Compendium it's possible to never take any spells that are not subtype fire (ignoring 0 level spells). The tough part is finding an evocation(fire) spell each level, but that's possible by taking lower level spells. It's necessary to fill up with Summon Monster spells (subtype fire when summoning fire mephits and fire elementals).

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[info]campaignmode
2008-05-13 03:44 am UTC (link)
Decent characters all, but Joe's is hardly the Alpha and the Omega. Quite competent, at least--but since Tome of Battle is allowed, you can do better. I DO like Joe's combining psionic focus and Diamond Mind maneuvers (quite effective, I've tried it myself). I'm rather surprised at the absence of the Lion Totem Barbarian (Complete Champion) for the pounce ability (one of the best 1-level dips in 3.5), although that book offers some pretty overpowered options.

Something you overlooked for Jill: Cloistered Cleric (Unearthed Arcana) not only fits Mercutio better, but gives her more skill points, a lore ability (like a Bard), and the Knowledge Domain effectively for free--Mercutio's not wearing armor anyways.

Dan banned Transmutation? Eww... with two other casters to handle Dispelling (one of whom is rather focused on it), Abjuration seems the better choice for a banned school. Teleporting everywhere is less easily done than it seems, even with a wand of Benign Transposition (and with his movement speed...).

Dang seems to have spread himself a little too thin with both RSoP and Church Inquisitor; I'd sooner have picked between Dispelling and Turning in addition to the normal cleric duties. RSoP looks better than it really is.

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[info]demonac
2008-05-13 06:02 am UTC (link)
Ahh, the drawback of providing too much information... heh.

Yes, Lothar is a very competent generalist warrior, but not by any stretch an unnatural game-destroying freak of nature build (though how you use it matters too). Obviously, this is mainly due to my own failure to have scoured every book in existence (I'm not even familiar with Complete Champion, and I probably should have spent some time abusing Magic of Incarnum). I can always try to weasel out with the excuse of trying to "slip under the radar" though - I can tell you that more than one of the players from the original D&D Excerpts was minimizing their use of some of their own abilities, or simply not taking certain other options, all in an effort to avoid drawing GM's attention to certain details. Some people were intentionally staggering the acquisition of certain feats/spells/powers, so they'd have something good to fall back on "after the first and second one get banned".

As for Cloistered Cleric, that was just plain silly of me... I'm sure I thought of it at some point, but got distracted and forgot. I also never wrote down Mercutio's deity, but it's even supposed to be Wee-jas (one of the most appropriate deities for that sort of thing). In fact, I think I'll go change that now...

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[info]demonac
2008-05-14 02:59 pm UTC (link)
As for Dang/Sylvani, Church Inquisitor was a PrC he could get into before level 5, and it does make him immune to charm, Detect Evil at will, +4 to Dispel (plus desperately needed skill points) and give him a save against any illusion he so much as sees. The class has basically no prereqs (4 ranks in skills he needs anyway, base Will +3 and Zone of Truth on his spell list), so all it's really costing him is 3 levels of Turning ability (and he starts into radiant one level later to get the illusion thing and better saves).

Because Rad Servant required Extra Turning, it seemed to make sense to pair that with Quicken just so he'd ever use all those turn attempts (if they were using standard instead of "damage-" turning, it would be really silly to dilute his turning power, but this way works pretty well despite his lack of charisma). Why Radiant Servant at all then? The free Empowerment of all Healing Domain spells reduces the amount he should have to spontaneous cast, hopefully preserving more castings for utility and dispelling (while he does all his damage with Fiery Burst). The Aura of +2 Will saves (morale) is pretty nice too.

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[info]campaignmode
2008-05-16 06:55 am UTC (link)
I'm not contesting the awesomeness of Church Inquisitor. It's possibly my favorite cleric prestige class. In exchange for... /sometimes/ full use of a few domain powers, you get great class abilities. It's basically a free cleric pump-up.

Rad Servant is what seems less than ideal. In my experience, in-combat healing should be avoided whenever possible, to save both actions and prepared spells (making use of party-bought wands of Lesser Vigor once combat concludes). But Rad Servant makes healing a huge focus of the character, and takes levels that could go toward PrCs like Church Inquisitor, Divine Oracle, or Contemplative; a sub-optimal feat (unless you're taking advantage of Divine Metamagic, more on that later); and bad domain access (Dang's dwarf cleric knew where it was at, plus a couple outside core like Time).

Focusing on turning isn't a great idea with Church Inquisitor levels diluting your turning damage, but that's not a big deal in the overall build scheme.

I'm guessing the lack of Divine Metamagic is thanks to anticipation of a ban, and the inability to really cheese it out thanks to Dang's low Cha. Even with that -1 score, it could still be very effective, so I'm leaning toward the latter.

Despite my nitpicking, it's still a better cleric build than I usually see people play (and a breath of fresh air from the DMM melee cleric).

I'll respond to your Lothar post once I have enough time to do it justice. Also, if I haven't mentioned it already, I really enjoy reading AGC, and think you do a fine job with it. It /has/ given me a additional perspectives on ways to play D&D, along with a few tricks that I'll have to try someday (some came from your campaign journal as well, of course)--namely, Dan's Necklace of Fireballs Inferno stunt is one that I want to pull in a lighthearted (so my usual DM doesn't whack me with the book) campaign at some point.

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[info]campaignmode
2008-05-13 04:20 am UTC (link)
Also, good to see Steele finally show some backbone.

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[info]stoopidtall
2008-05-26 05:55 pm UTC (link)
Sorry to fit the stereotype, but these definitely aren't majorly optimized.
Lothar: I'm not seeing why Lothar has a level of Barbarian, as he's not getting pounce(which is weak for the current build anyways, but better than fast movement) and he can't use most of his maneuvers while raging. The Wep Focus/Wep Spec line is underpowered, too, and if they're a prereq for something, I'd usually drop the entire line if he capstone isn't worth the cost of 2 feats+itself. Also, shields are seen as useless compared to 2-handed Power Attack. Anyone without that is generally ignored in melee. if he must have the shield, he needs to get it animated so he can still PA. Also, am I correct in noting that he doesn't have White Raven Tactics? That is blasphemy, especially in a party with 3 spellcasters. Every couple rounds, that's a free spell for one of them.
Mercutio: Small note, Precocious Apprentice may work, there's still debate. If the forums were actually checked by Steele, at least 3 flamewars were probably begun by him just by asking the question. Other than that, I have to wonder why she barred Illusion instead of Evocation, but that may just be residual hatred. Also, why an Invisible Bedroll instead of a Hewards Fortifying Bedroll, which allows you to refresh Arcane spells in only an hour?
Ro-gayne: There are several variants that would allow him to get rid of Scribe Scroll, and I'm surprised he didn't. I doubt he'd ever use it, and Jill has the feat so they can Collaborate if he wants to scribe something. Also, his gear seems far too cheap. Other than that, best he can do and still be Nuclear.
Sylvani: Turning is definitely all-or-nothing. Monster HD advances far faster than CR. A single level in a class that doesn't advance turning can render you useless at it. He seems to have no focus to his build, no purpose. He either needs to drop turning, or drop everything that hinders it.

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[info]demonac
2008-05-26 09:20 pm UTC (link)
The greatest problem with posting this kind of thing is that, of course, I'm not as good as Joe or Dang are supposed to be.

That said, Lothar wears Mithril Full Plate, and because the Mithril reduces the effective armor category to medium, he can in fact use his Barbarian fast movement. I realize I didn't declare a totem variant for his barbarian level, but if we assume the Wolf totem variant, his next level in barb would also give him zero-prereq Imp.Trip in place of UncannyDodge, which would be pretty nasty with ShieldCharge.

As for PA vs all the shield stuff, AgileShieldFighter lets him effectively TWF with a high AC shield (and a spiked shield "of Bashing" does base 2d6), which he also gets a free trip with if he hits on a charge attack with the shield. Animated shields have the drawback that as a +2 power, they are ultimately granting 2 points less AC unless you have 15th level sort of money to work with. I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it out to be, but then, I spent a long time in a campaign where the DM tuned any powerful melee enemy to have abnormally high AC, so I'm used to PA being useless way too often.

Then invisible bedroll is just something I like, a holdover from older games (including a personal character of mine who was a little paranoid, and had crafted an invisible bedroll that levitated 10' off the ground while in use). In addition to initially assuming that illusions were still banned, Jill also wanted to try out Manyjaws (and swift concentration) just for kicks (with an eye to taking ExtraordinaryConcentration later on).

Ro-gayne definitely should have found something to trade scribe scroll for (hell, even toughness would be better, and that's sad). He was already getting so much advice (and trying to note it down, look it up etc) that that part kindof got lost in the shuffle. His gear sample is pretty puny, but when Infernus died, his new character (though Steele felt he was fairly generous) didn't have as much gear as Lothar and Mercutio had accumulated over their careers, plus he "wasted" a bunch of it on that Necklace of Fireballs (which got expended). Plus, he wastes money on stupid crap like a flaming weapon.

Since they are using the TurningAsDamage variant, it is much less all or nothing. With his crappy charisma, Silvani only took Extra Turning because it's a prereq for RadiantServant, and then figured Quicken Turning was worthwhile, because it turns those six uses into swift 6d6 blasts, instead of being standard actions he would never use. One could very reasonably argue that he should have traded QuickenTurning and ImpInit for a DivineMetamagic (and a Meta feat to use with it)... but with the actual spells he's memorizing, that wouldn't be the be-all and end-all. He's (probably) never going to cast that Flamestrike anyway, and having the extra damage as a free action against undead seemed decent (especially if they adjudicate the Sun domain power as dealing max-damage).

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